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re: Walchan
When someone asked for a quick and simple solution, why I didn"t tell them?
Since I am a serious guy on most of things ...... especially on photography ...... I was affected by my lecturer who taught me Sensitometry, he changed me the attitude toward photography, more scientific ...... he was a great lecturer!
I know they didn"t criticize me, however I am always surprised why so many ppl (mainly in HK forums) don"t like Ansel Adams? (not only here)
I can"t see Ansel Adams did any wrong thing on photography ......
In fact, many ppl criticize the Zone System, however I know most of them have read/learnt it before ...... if not, how can they criticize it correctly?
That"s why I am always confused by those ppl ...... |
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Cloudy兄：
就這條thread而言，真的看不出有人不妥Ansel Adams啊。
只是他所創的zone system要求攝影者充分了解所用的感光材料、藥水等的特性，才可得心應手。所以我才會說如他仍在世，又看見現代人用tone curve也可在
"事後"輕易做出頗為理想的效果時，定會覺得很唏噓。
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>即使他未過世，看見新一代攝影人用tone curve用得出神入化，睇怕會非常無癮。
Not necessary. I read some letters from Ansel Adams. I feel that he is very open to new technology.
>BTW, zone system同bracketing似乎是對立的啊。
I believe so. Zone system is a systematic way to avoid braketing.
>乜呢度好多人好憎Ansel Adams? 我唔識佢個喎!
I fail to see this in the thread. Why did you have this conclusion,
>我主要係讀Sensitometry, 順便睇埋Zone System咋喎 ......
Good. I spend a lot of time to self-learning this and practise zone system quite crazyly when I had my darkroom. I even installed a very large electricity stablizer to have more stable light for my enlarger.
>只是他所創的zone system要求攝影者充分了解所用的感光材料、藥水等的特
>性，才可得心應手。所以我才會說如他仍在世，又看見現代人用tone curve也>可在"事後"輕易做出頗為理想的效果時，定會覺得很唏噓。
Not necessary. He may be more enjoy with the new technology. He is really open to new stuffs and with open mind, feeled from his writing. Nevertheless, he cannot invent Zone system if he is not open minded enough.
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Zone system 不單是film exposure 啊 ^_^~~ ----------- 我同意尼句已經清楚表明認為zs係好野. 今次條thread問日落, 同上次問沙灘光背打flash都係好例子. 一個為保留亮部,要SACRIFY暗部; 後者剛好相反. 通過ZS控制(如contraction), 可以保留更多細節, 免於人們單在"曝光多少"的問題上打轉.... 大家對zs提出既疑問, 出於點樣係彩色度應用, 如收data做curve要解決好多問題, 有人可以分享一吓經驗, 一定會有人想聽. d人想extend zs個idea多過批評, 唔應該睇成不妥Ansel Adams. 亞LO, tone可以改,唔可以作. Ansel Adams唔會唏噓。 BTW, slide個D RANGE比NEGATIVES高好多, 用slide影日落可以保留更多細節. 好多我以為黑mun mun既細節, 放落燈箱度, 仲可以睇到好多好清楚. e.g. 可以睇睇(rvp vs reala)既d range. http://home.fujifilm.com/products/uploaded/Fil0027.pdfhttp://home.fujifilm.com/products/uploaded/Fil0004.PDF |
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>BTW, zone system同bracketing似乎是對立的啊。
I believe so. Zone system is a systematic way to avoid braketing.
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理論上好似對立, 實際上用起上黎得心應手, 何必局限自己?
>只是他所創的zone system要求攝影者充分了解所用的感光材料、藥水等的特
>性，才可得心應手。所以我才會說如他仍在世，又看見現代人用tone curve也>可在"事後"輕易做出頗為理想的效果時，定會覺得很唏噓。
Not necessary. He may be more enjoy with the new technology. He is really open to new stuffs and with open mind, feeled from his writing. Nevertheless, he cannot invent Zone system if he is not open minded enough.
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睇過佢寫既書, 真係好敬配佢 ...... 唔係因為佢既Zone System, 而係因為佢既書真係毫無保留咁教人!
>亞LO, tone可以改,唔可以作.
Ansel Adams唔會唏噓。
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絕對正確
BTW, slide個D RANGE比NEGATIVES高好多,
用slide影日落可以保留更多細節.
好多我以為黑mun mun既細節,
放落燈箱度,
仲可以睇到好多好清楚.
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Slide D-range3.8左右, Neg. D-range只得2.0左右 |
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真相大白！這裡的“對立論”並非找砸，而是聽說阿當斯永不用大包圍曝光，有感而發的。
有得罪之處，請見諒！
>BTW, zone system同bracketing似乎是對立的啊。
I believe so. Zone system is a systematic way to avoid braketing.
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理論上好似對立, 實際上用起上黎得心應手, 何必局限自己?
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>而是聽說阿當斯永不用大包圍曝光，有感而發的。
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1. 其實Ansel Adams有時都影多過1個暴光, 因為佢用B/W Neg., 所以唔使bracketing, 只要over expose就得.
2. Ansel Adams暴光有時都失手, 佢D書都好老實咁講.
3. Ansel Adams有名既 "Moonrise", 係靠估既, 無測光 ...... 因為佢搵唔到個meter!
4. 仲有, 佢唔使bracketing仲有一個原因, 佢可以用Development黎做事後控制.
5. 比較重要, Zone System其實只係Ansel Adams將Sensitometry呢門科學實用化, 令Lab入面既實驗用o係每日既攝影裡面.
P.S. 可能有太多人神化Ansel Adams, 所以亦令到有人 (唔係講呢度) 唔多鍾意佢, 其實睇過佢D書既人就知道Ansel Adams係一個好開明, 好update既老人家, 其實佢好老實, 無神化自己 ......
同埋, 佢後生既時候都做過commercial photographer, 唔係一個象牙塔入面既photographer. |
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>就這條thread而言，真的看不出有人不妥Ansel Adams啊。
I was thinking the same too. I think brother Cloudy just misinterpreted the messages. |
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So, Happy Together!! ^_^ |
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If I am going to bracket the exposures, I don"t see any need to start with Zone System. Just a single metering is good enough to start with. |
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> If I am going to bracket the exposures, I don"t see any need to start with Zone System. Just a single metering is good enough to start with.
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Just like previsualization ...... many photographers don"t know this can also take good sunset photos too ......
Zone System can be the first step for us to previsualize our sunset photos, so do we need previsualization?
I think this only depends on different photographers" / artists" attitude. |
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If I am going to bracket the exposures, I don"t see any need to start with Zone System.
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No. As I pointed out in (24), sticking to the exposure issue cannot provide us with a solution of reproducing "perfect tonal range" in such a contrasty scene. No matter how hard you do bracketing, if you have not captured some details in certain zones or part, you cannot reproduce them with any kind of contraction and expansion afterwards. That"s why I suggest to Peter LO that AA would had not been unhappy about others using the tone curve. You cannot construct some tone with a tone curve which had not already been captured in a negative.
BUT, the converse of the statement definitely sounds: that is, if I am using Zone System to handle the case, there is no need to think about bracketing. Why? Because I have already gathered enough data enabling me to reproduce the exact (of course with very small "delta") density on a negative and hence the exact tone falling on it and reproducing it in a photo. ZS means strict and total control. Also, you can do whatever you want with the "prefect negative" obtained to satisfy your "subjective" requirement when enlarging. If you have carried the ZS steps correctly, what"s the point for exposure bracketing here?
Mickey, I am not picky about the words you use, I simply very sensitive to logical claim. Put it differently, ZS is a "sufficient condition" for us to avoid bracketing. But not the converse of it. Indeed, I know what you are trying to point out and I agree with it.
So, happy together. ^_^b |
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我覺得 ZS 對現今的彩色相片或 slide 所起的作用有多大, 有一些疑問.
因為在影,沖,晒三個過程中, C-41 or E-6 能有多少的改變去影響反差?
彩色相紙的反差又有多少的選擇呢? |
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Previsualization is not invented for Zone system.
Previsualization exist before zone system.
>Zone System can be the first step for us to previsualize our sunset photos,
I believe it is not quite correct. Previsualization is the first step of implementing Zone System. However, Previsualization does not imply that you are using zone system.
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>我覺得 ZS 對現今的彩色相片或 slide 所起的作用有多大, 有一些疑問.
>因為在影,沖,晒三個過程中, C-41 or E-6 能有多少的改變去影響反差?
>彩色相紙的反差又有多少的選擇呢?
Although it is more difficult to 改變反差 in color photography.
However, we can still apply previsualization, exposure placement to achieve what we want. And when the tonal range are out of the capability of the film, then we can choose from no to take any photos or to take photos with some compromise. |
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Sorry!
I typed the wrong word "Previsualization", there is no such word in English.
The correct word should be "Visualization", please note.
So ...... should be:
>>Zone System can be the first step for us to visualize our sunset photos ...
It means I will measure the zones (different points of scene) first with a spot meter before I start to visualize my sunset photos.
Dear micky_mouse,
So can I bracket my exposure without using Zone System?
In fact, I can bracket my exposure with any light meter!
However, I always use my spot meter and the concept of zone system for most outdoor photos.
So I can"t answer any more ...... |
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>It means I will measure the zones (different points of scene) first with a spot meter before I start to visualize my sunset photos.
I would much prefer to evaluate the scene well before I started taking some readings, as it seems to be the logical way. I found myself having difficulty to put those readings in use or even remember them if I did not have any idea what I wanted. But I suppose the "order" is not that important to some. |
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for those who may find it interesting :
In a letter to a friend, AA wrote (1974),
"...在我發展的Zone System觀念裡,
視覺(Visualization)才是對我衝擊最大的部份,
而其中前視(Previsualization)的觀點,
才是Zone System成功與否的關鍵所在..."
The new ZS manual. Appendix J. |
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To me, visualization are just essential to any visual arts.
I don"t think anyone can do good photos without visualization, no matter you apply zone system or not.
if you take photos, you need to have a clear idea on what you expect to get before pressing the shutter. It is visualization to me. I do that before I learn zone system
However, I just discover that some photograhers did not do so.
That is why I cannot quite understand some believes in lomography.
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"previsualization" means pressing the shutter "pre" , aka before, "visualization".
Haha...
Just kidding, don"t take it seriously. |
